tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16876687.post8844110276726844123..comments2024-02-27T16:59:54.089-05:00Comments on (The New) Theatre Ideas: Trickle-Down Artistry: On Leonard Jacobs and Michael KaiserUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger42125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16876687.post-81687714829831288302010-02-12T20:12:44.816-05:002010-02-12T20:12:44.816-05:00One of the reasons I have created CRADLE is to mak...One of the reasons I have created CRADLE is to make more widely known those rural arts organizations who don't fit the model Ian describes. There are many out there, each with a little different way of doing things, each adapted to their own communities. The other reason I created CRADLE was to develop a unique model that I believe will make arts organizations more sustainable in smaller communities. I described my first draft here: http://bit.ly/4aBkSD. Theatre is smaller communities suffer from a lack of distribution of information about them, which leads the urban myth to portray such arts organizations as unsustainable. Not true. And I don;t believe I have just accidently stumbled on the only organizations who are making it. But it requires a different mindset, and that is the biggest hurtle.Scott Waltershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06465161646609405658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16876687.post-20747813889597027262010-02-12T18:32:50.384-05:002010-02-12T18:32:50.384-05:00Ironically, Lucia, I think science is at its most ...Ironically, Lucia, I think science is at its most de-mystified state ever in our era. There may still be people scared of it and there may be a steep learning curve towards actually doing original research, but the general public can follow much of the current methodologies, discoveries, and theories and come away with at least some understanding.<br /><br />As far as Scott's comments on professional artists: I think most of the ones I know maintain some community involvement, including teaching. I love teaching theatre and the only reason I don't do more is because of limits on the umbrella organizations that allow me to conduct my teaching since I can't afford the financial risk of opening up my own studio.<br /><br />I should also note that all of the theatre troupes I know of that are based in rural areas are so based due to the dollar to square feet ratio-- but they also tour a lot: performing in cities or universities-- so they are only really "rurally based" when they are in pre-production, training, or rehearsal-- and often live together.Ian Thalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15348768867561450314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16876687.post-55846314607775478132010-02-12T18:09:07.282-05:002010-02-12T18:09:07.282-05:00Scott - Bravo! And thanks to all three (Ian and Uk...Scott - Bravo! And thanks to all three (Ian and Uke also) as eavesdropping on this conversation was very helpful to understanding Scott's proposal. I'm a scientist interested in theatre and I keep thinking how people used to make their own science but now everyone seems to expect high priests in white lab coats...luciahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17562286037979044770noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16876687.post-13346900412791988512010-02-12T02:14:59.499-05:002010-02-12T02:14:59.499-05:00Some of the folks are too out of it to sing along ...Some of the folks are too out of it to sing along but they enjoy it. I almost always get some kind of response out of everybody in the room. <br /><br />I don't do it so much anymore. Even private places cut their budgets back. Lots of it was county money and they have definitely had funding cuts -- speaking of trickle down.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13156600039221295474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16876687.post-10332488748835999692010-02-11T20:12:53.691-05:002010-02-11T20:12:53.691-05:00"As a performer, I get calls to play old folk..."As a performer, I get calls to play old folks homes, leading singalongs, and I get paid to do it.<br />Sure, anybody could stand up and sing with a group. However, as a professional, I practice music and singing a couple hours a day. That professionalism makes my presentations a pleasurable experience for my mostly shut-in audiences (when I'm playing these sort of gigs). The community wants me precisely because I am a professional."<br /><br />Exactly! That's what I'm saying! I'm not saying exclude people who have training, but I'm saying they need to use their training, in part, to encourage OTHERS to express themselves. If you just went to a nursing home and did a little concert, then I'm not as crazy about it -- it's nice, yes, and a step in the right direction. But you get the shut-in to themselves sing, and that's key. The next step is to get the shut-ins to do a concert themselves under your guidance! <br /><br />But I'm not talking about doing things "for fun" (although fun is certainly part of it), but in doing things to create social capital, to pass stories from generation to generation, to make place more vivid, to encourage leadership and creativity. <br /><br />As far as artists stealing the expressive life, you have to admit that most artists look down their nose on so-called non-professionals, and would prefer that they just sit quietly and applaud loudly at the end. We get all bent out of shape if somebody has the temerity to talk while they're acting, as if theatre is church and the actors are high priests. But our history -- history that most artists know only superficially -- involves a very lively, interactive actor-audience relationship. We have created what I call sit-down-and-shut-up arts. In an interactive society, this spells death. That's how we teach 'em in college, and that's how we like it. Until the ticket sales tank.Scott Waltershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06465161646609405658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16876687.post-71817254955761228742010-02-11T20:03:29.233-05:002010-02-11T20:03:29.233-05:00Hi Ian. Nice to meet you, too.
Scott, arts as rec...Hi Ian. Nice to meet you, too.<br /><br />Scott, arts as recreation (community participation for fun) doesn't preclude a role for "Professional artists." As a performer, I get calls to play old folks homes, leading singalongs, and I get paid to do it. <br /><br />Sure, anybody could stand up and sing with a group. However, as a professional, I practice music and singing a couple hours a day. That professionalism makes my presentations a pleasurable experience for my mostly shut-in audiences (when I'm playing these sort of gigs). The community wants me precisely because I am a professional.<br /><br />I understand what you're saying about excluding people who want to be part of something. And I know you don't care who is to blame and want it to stop. But you threw down the gauntlet when you said "Artists have stolen the expressive life of citizens to the detriment of our sense of independence and community."<br /><br />Maybe it's the local arts administrators who did that? (That's certainly been my experience in rural PA.) Or any and all of the other suspects already named. <br /><br />There are people with very real stakes in keeping the system as it is. Very few of them are artists, and artists are all too often easy targets. Here in PA, artists no longer get art council money. It goes to arts institutions and, in turn, arts admins.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13156600039221295474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16876687.post-9424800821506500332010-02-11T17:10:54.004-05:002010-02-11T17:10:54.004-05:00I have this uncomfortable feeling that we're t...I have this uncomfortable feeling that we're trying to have two conversations at once. <br /><br />Dell Arte and Appalshop are examples to illustrate that it is possible to have healthy arts organizations in rural areas. That was an early question of yours. Dell Arte is not a model for what I propose -- while it has diverse activities, it is still pretty traditionally structured. Appalshop is closer, and the other two closer still, with Northern Lakes the closest to the model I prefer.<br /><br />I am interested in the idea of social entrepreneurship, an approach which breaks out of the reliance on grants. I think it is possible.Scott Waltershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06465161646609405658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16876687.post-15331355959232393222010-02-11T17:03:00.097-05:002010-02-11T17:03:00.097-05:00“The problem is that art has been made into a prod...“The problem is that art has been made into a product to be consumed, and the expressive act has now become something that is done by specialists and put up for sale to consumers. That IS the diagnosis. The CAUSE of the problem is over-determined: there are many culprits. Including artists themselves.”<br /><br />Of course there is no denying that your two models also have products to sell. Dell Arte is selling their unique physical training and aesthetic as well as their touring productions. How different is that from Broadway selling its product to a national audience/consumer, or one of the many theatre MFA programs selling its training?<br /><br />You seem to know more about Appalshop patrons than the public record I had looked at showed me. So I’ll take your word they are local patrons. And, yes, sugar daddies don’t fall out of the sky, so good for Appalshop in securing their endowment. And I am not disputing the value of their work, but like getting funding for any do-good community cause, some patron other than those who you are serving is needed. In these kind of proposals theatres are competing with other service such as soup kitchens or free medical clinics for its patronage. Turning theatre from a product into a service doesn’t magically somehow fund it.Nick https://www.blogger.com/profile/13280949568861084843noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16876687.post-18840731120770503302010-02-11T13:52:37.983-05:002010-02-11T13:52:37.983-05:00Ian, have I ever claimed to have discovered anythi...Ian, have I ever claimed to have discovered anything? There have been arts organizations in small communities for decades. The problem is that many artists, if they do the things you mention at all, do them simply to make money until they get a chance to STOP doing them. I am contending that arts orgainzations in small communities commit to both creation and facilitation equally, and with an equal sense of mission.Scott Waltershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06465161646609405658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16876687.post-27653778984972520882010-02-11T13:48:53.863-05:002010-02-11T13:48:53.863-05:00The problem is that art has been made into a produ...The problem is that art has been made into a product to be consumed, and the expressive act has now become something that is done by specialists and put up for sale to consumers. That IS the diagnosis. The CAUSE of the problem is over-determined: there are many culprits. Including artists themselves.<br /><br />And yes, it IS an anti-modernist rant. I don't think these particular social changes have benefited our society. In the same way that the values of the Industrial Revolution has destroyed our physical environment, the values of our society has destroyed our expressive life and sense of community. I make no apologies for that belief.Scott Waltershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06465161646609405658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16876687.post-84048240627816910592010-02-11T13:47:51.385-05:002010-02-11T13:47:51.385-05:00"until we create arts organizations that INVI..."until we create arts organizations that INVITE the community to participate, until we see part of an artist's job as FACILITATING that participation, then we are reinforcing the passivity."<br /><br />Welcome to my world. I may be a playwright, but I am also a <i>student</i> of kathak, and I teach mime and <i>commedia dell'arte</i> at a local youth circus. I've also been working a lot with grassroots/DIY alternative arts organizations throughout my artistic career. It's only in the last few years that I've had much contact with the more institutional side of the art world.<br /><br />So congratulations on discovering "participation" and "community" and "facilitation"-- but I've been here all along.<br /><br />Oh, and nice to meet you, Uke.Ian Thalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15348768867561450314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16876687.post-43646423690609561722010-02-11T13:40:30.552-05:002010-02-11T13:40:30.552-05:00Well, if you don't care to diagnose the proble...Well, if you don't care to diagnose the problem, I'm not sure I can have confidence that you've really thought through the model that proves to be a solution.<br /><br />I'm also a bit suspicious that this is transforming itself from "how to bring artists and artistic activity to underserved areas" into an anti-modernist rant.Ian Thalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15348768867561450314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16876687.post-76619711540334395522010-02-11T13:36:02.829-05:002010-02-11T13:36:02.829-05:00Ian, meet Uke; Uke, Ian.Ian, meet Uke; Uke, Ian.Scott Waltershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06465161646609405658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16876687.post-16340995329925061402010-02-11T13:35:29.409-05:002010-02-11T13:35:29.409-05:00Uke -- Hey, it IS your culture. And until we recla...Uke -- Hey, it IS your culture. And until we reclaim it, until we create arts organizations that INVITE the community to participate, until we see part of an artist's job as FACILITATING that participation, then we are reinforcing the passivity.Scott Waltershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06465161646609405658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16876687.post-75868264719098252032010-02-11T13:33:55.561-05:002010-02-11T13:33:55.561-05:00Let me repeat: I don't give a damn who is to b...Let me repeat: I don't give a damn who is to blame -- I want it to stop. Period.Scott Waltershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06465161646609405658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16876687.post-81851014036023299642010-02-11T13:32:11.841-05:002010-02-11T13:32:11.841-05:00"Artists have stolen the expressive life of c..."Artists have stolen the expressive life of citizens to the detriment of our sense of independence and community."<br /><br />Really? What about the politicians and school administrators who cut funding for music, theatre, dance, and visual arts in public schools?<br /><br />I'd place the blame there before I started attacking the artists or newer media-- and even if I were to blame the artists who work in the television, film, and videogame industries, I'd have to note that their work is often heavily mediated by corporate who have a non-aesthetic agenda.Ian Thalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15348768867561450314noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16876687.post-39197827221179676962010-02-11T12:40:13.392-05:002010-02-11T12:40:13.392-05:00Music used to be a unifying force. Everyone went t...Music used to be a unifying force. Everyone went to the park and stood around the gazebo while the band played. There was community singing. Even radio had a certain unifying element. <br /><br />Now everyone has an iPod and listens to their own soundtrack. <br /><br />Hey, it's not my culture. I just ,live here.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13156600039221295474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16876687.post-40922545308723102082010-02-11T12:25:52.526-05:002010-02-11T12:25:52.526-05:00Reality TV has nothing to do with creating art. It...Reality TV has nothing to do with creating art. It says "people live and have conflicts, ain't that interesting?"<br /><br />And I don't really give a damn who is to blame, I want it to stop. I want people to tell their own stories, instead of relying on TV to tell them for them; I want them to sing their own songs together, instead of buying a CD; I want them to dance together, instead of watching dancers. And I want the ideology that says that you can only do an art if you can do it as well as the "professionals" to stop. The number of people who blush and say, "oh, I don't sing" is disturbing. But if we all realized that we CAN sing or dance or tell stories or draw, then we'd be less likely to BUY things, and we can't have that, can we? There would be people being creative all over the place!Scott Waltershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06465161646609405658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16876687.post-32032202095209212112010-02-11T12:20:40.792-05:002010-02-11T12:20:40.792-05:00Scott, I agree that arts have been made into commo...Scott, I agree that arts have been made into commodities -- but I think that was done by socie3ty. Remember, this country has been nothing but a business proposition since the Hudson Bay Company. <br /><br />Musicians were recorded and profits realized for others long before the artists enjoyed their fair share.<br /><br />Reality TV doesn't take any artists to make and it suggests that everyone CAN do this. Has it enriched the culture?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13156600039221295474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16876687.post-73948629392732741412010-02-11T11:47:14.993-05:002010-02-11T11:47:14.993-05:00Uke -- I consider people who create mass media (TV...Uke -- I consider people who create mass media (TV, music, film, even video games) artists. We have taken the attitude that we are trained professionals, don't try this at home. We have turned the arts into things to be consumed, not created. I think that impoverishes individuals and communities.Scott Waltershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06465161646609405658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16876687.post-63019713558569851592010-02-11T11:41:41.669-05:002010-02-11T11:41:41.669-05:00"Artists have stolen the expressive life of c..."Artists have stolen the expressive life of citizens to the detriment of our sense of independence and community."<br /><br />Really? Not television? Not corporations? Not plutocratic foundations? Not video games, incessant violence in popular culture, or NASCAR? <br /><br />The artists did it. Glad to be set straight on that one.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13156600039221295474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16876687.post-30391067308269387062010-02-11T11:05:06.437-05:002010-02-11T11:05:06.437-05:00silent_nic -- I'm very puzzled by your comment...silent_nic -- I'm very puzzled by your comments. Is it your opinion that an arts organization should confine its energies solely to the production of individual plays and the selling of tickets? Because I don't. I think that is one of the major problems of our current system: specialist artists who think they should only have to do the one thing they specialize in: act, direct, design, etc. I think that artists who are part of a company -- and that is a foundational premise for me; I'm not talking about freelancers who come and go -- should provide auxiliary income for the organization. For Dell Arte, that is the school -- so why does that disqualify them as being a successful arts organization in a small place? Appalshop has their endowment -- how do you think they got that endowment? It didn't drop out of the sky, it was contributed, mostly by local people. They also have a public radio station, a documentary filmmaker program, a program to teach high school students how to create radio, film, and theatre work, and other programs. This is what makes them valuable in their towns. <br /><br />I don't believe that an arts organization should be totally reliant on ticket sales for survival -- that is a dysfunction of the current system, which relies on ticket sales and grants. I think that arts organizations should run additional businesses for supplementary income. So, yes, a bar in the case of Stage North; music lessons and the operation of a local newspaper in the case of Northern Lakes Center for the Arts. I could imagine an arts organization where the artists grow their own food, or lead bus trips to visit big city museums and performances, or make radio commercials for local businesses, or run an after school program, or operate a coffee shop, or... All of which is to say: if all you wanna do is act/direct/design, then this is not the place for you -- stick to the big cities where you can tend bar and wait tables for somebody else and do your theatre work on the side.<br /><br />There are artists who are full-time employees for each organization AND there are local non-professionals who volunteer their time. As I have said in the past, I do not believe in the idea of artist-specialists who do all the creating and then sell it to a passive audience; I believe in artists who facilitate the expressive life of the community. Artists have stolen the expressive life of citizens to the detriment of our sense of independence and community.Scott Waltershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06465161646609405658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16876687.post-73189907856042275412010-02-11T09:52:07.572-05:002010-02-11T09:52:07.572-05:00Hi Scott,
You've referenced Dell Arte and App...Hi Scott,<br /><br />You've referenced Dell Arte and Appalshop before. Dell Arte has its school, touring productions and Appalshop has its endowment; neither is very dependent on local economy and/or audience for sustaining or supporting their work. So you are extending the notion of community and patronage to non-local individuals and entities. <br /><br />The two new groups you present as models seem to have theatre only as adjunct to their activity and mission. The Wisconsin group appears to rely on its bar scene for support. The would-be actor there might want to attend bartender school, not theatre school, to qualify for employment by the group. I have not looked real close, but are these groups really community groups, or are they are more like facilities. Are there artists actually on payroll with these groups?Nick https://www.blogger.com/profile/13280949568861084843noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16876687.post-79536979227692638102010-02-10T21:24:18.723-05:002010-02-10T21:24:18.723-05:00I believe they are replicable. More than that, I h...I believe they are replicable. More than that, I have created a new business model that I believe will work effectively in smaller communities.<br /><br />As far as companies floudering, I suspect I could find way more companies that have floundered and folded in NYC than in small communities, yet that doesn't stop foolhardy theatre people from starting yet another company there. Coals to Newcastle. Time to try something new.<br /><br />Check out Stage North (http://www.stagenorth.com/home.html) and Northern Lakes Center for the Arts (http://www.northernlakescenter.org/Northern_Lakes/HOME.html), and then Dell Arte and AppalshopScott Waltershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06465161646609405658noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-16876687.post-38469938506675610872010-02-10T21:15:42.350-05:002010-02-10T21:15:42.350-05:00But are these examples easily replicable or are th...But are these examples easily replicable or are they weird statistical outliers? How many other arts organizations have floundered when they attempted to set up shop in similarly sized communities?<br /><br />What are the other relevant statistics? What's the population density for those 2400 people in Washburn? How do they travel to the event? How far do they have to travel? What sort of support does the event have from other community organizations?Ian Thalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15348768867561450314noreply@blogger.com